MSN BETA - What the algo looks like at the moment

[Snowblind]

The new MSN search engine may change, but here's what we know about it so far.

It does not use Meta tags.
For on-page optimisation the title tag seems to be a strong variable in their rankings. Possibly not as much as Google however.
Anchor text in links appear to be a very strong factor. This looks to have been given larger weight than in Google.
The written content on the page is still a factor in ranking. I can't comment on the weight at this time.

Has anyone else noticed other things that we should be aware of?

[seo guy]

I have pages that I haven't touched since writing them ranking #1 for ULTRA competitive terms using oldschool SEO

kw in title
kw in desc
kw in meta kw

H1 with keyword
first paragraph kw bolded and sprinkled throughout as whole and pieces if long.

H2 with kw
paragraph again contains kw

throughout the rest of the page let the kw occur naturally in your writing, dont overstuff

last P make sure it is as strong as the first for the kw phrase

Links to other pages on your site with kw as part of anchor

Tada!

Oh yeah and lots and lots of inbound links with kw as anchor text

[Cygnus]

KW in URL seems to have a higher weight in MSN than G as well...noticed this during the earlier techpreview releases...thankfully it has lessened a bit, but still important.

[clasione]

It simply a 10 month old Google copy with no filters....

they'd better do better than that - if they wanna be taken seriously....

[xan]

Agreed Clasione. I am not impressed yet. Where is the big innovation here? Mind you, it is still a beta. If they intend to release in the new year though and these are their offering, think they have the potential to be in a lot of trouble, as other competitors are on the ball. If they rease finally a big change and a very clever and effective one...good on them , lets see it :D

[Mike-sfsgo]

I hope that they do not create a replica of G. People need alternative results, what would the point in producing an identical search?

They will probably keep modifying the algo before it goes live. I see results changing on a daily basis.

Mike.

[Dreamshop]

I've seen similiar results, with the beta replicating placement almost exactly for any Google 'allinanchor' position.

It's all just a little too easy in my opinion. :D

[serp]

I think that we must wait some time... MSN new beta is changin algo all the time and I can see how my positions are dancin without any changes.

[xan]

...the problem is that its not the algorithm changing, its the weights.

[Cygnus]

Xan is correct on this one; it is just the weighting of title, url, anchor text, density, etc that has been changing. The algo itself has been pretty stable for the last few weeks.

It isn't perfect, as I mentioned in my reply to the MSN beta blog posting for today, but it is good enough to at least replace the Yahoo results, which don't even seem to be based on logic anymore.

Cygnus

[Vrian_Sinth]

I am still impressed with the MSN search engine, being that this is being built from scratch (as much scratch as MSN can do). Yahoo based their engine off of old Inktomi, Fast and Altavista tactics. MSN does place a lot of importance on keyword stuffing in the URL.

Is the consensus still that Beta will switch to existing serps around mid January 05?

[xan]

hehe...they better be making their own from scratch! I mean they want to beat the others, not equal them. And I am not impressed about them doing that, I mean come on, they made office, IE, OS, xbox, .Net, server OS, ... this is hardly an impressive engineering feat. The key is in the method. Where is it ?? So far I see I see a wee google varient.

[Cygnus]

Xan, if we look at the timeline of it all, then it becomes impressive. When it was at the techpreview stage, it was really no better than Inktomi in showing relevant, useful results. Once it went to the current beta, it did seem rather reminiscent of a filterless Google. Perhaps by the time it goes live it will be something spectacular...maybe it will only get as good as it is now...hard to say. At the very least, the main MSN results will be better than they were before; at the very best, they'll be better results than users can find on Google -- I suppose we'll just have to sit back, have a glass of wine, and wait.

Cygnus

[xan]

I'll drink to that...cheers!

[4Comparison]

I agree with Cygnus, why use Y! when they already have sufficient results.

Additionally, the beta has some serious horsepower behind it, doing deep scans into minor sites with the results hitting the SERPs in a few days. They have built a huge index and some will like it, others will not.

With the brawn of MS Corp behind it, I will gain market share ( helped by the influx of ad $ ) and it would make sense to provide less techie results that the typical MSN search user will appreciate.

[wyrickj]

I think Bill and Microsoft have a better understanding of the whole internet industry then Google. I hope Bill does take over Google. Right now I am very happy with the serps in MSN Beta. #9 to be exact for a pretty competive keyword and Google just has me sandboxed. I am starting to hate Google for the sandbox reason.

As always I see MS has puts out great stuff. Go Microsoft.

[serp]

I like Google but new msn is nice. Will see what will be next...

[Cygnus]

I'm curious as to what kind of answers will be provided to the questions we've all been asking...launch date, how much more is planned before launch, etc etc. On the 13th, MSN is having a conference call and will be at the SES Chicago conference -- methinks we'll be learning something regarding our questions next week.

Cygnus

[smindsrt]

[QUOTE=Cygnus]I'm curious as to what kind of answers will be provided to the questions we've all been asking...launch date, how much more is planned before launch, etc etc. On the 13th, MSN is having a conference call and will be at the SES Chicago conference -- methinks we'll be learning something regarding our questions next week.

Cygnus[/QUOTE]

Yes, some say we may get some sort of announcement then.

Either I'm getting better or they played with the algo again, in the last 24-48 hours. I'm number one for both of my major KW now. One at 47 Million and one at 22 million.

I think they played with it again. :cool:

[rizla]

Msn looks sweet, even with no off-site.
Something is happening for sure - http://www.seo-scoop.com/direct_link.cfm?thepost=209

[xan]

Lets wait and see what they're announcing, interesting for sure.

I agree that the msn beta has done well, but it has not been built over a few months, lets call it a few years. Thats when they started working on search anyway.

The directory isn't as big as Google's yet, but lets give it time.

It is owned by the steam roller company who have a habit of sucking in everything (thus eliminating competition and slowing progress). I would expect them to throw their weight around.

I don't think they have a better understanding of the internet at all.

for a bit more insight:

http://research.microsoft.com/ir/

[Cygnus]

The MSN conference hold music keeps repeating itself...

MSN desktop search suite available early Q1 (hard drive search, e-mail, calendar, contacts, work with multiple file types -- indexing and meta data): built into various applications [Word, Outlook, etc] -- not only search, but use (copy, delete, forward, etc). Concept is to integrate the search into the various program and desktop shells. Supposed to go beyond basic desktop searching.

Toolbar suite integrates the beta MSN search. Beefed up privacy (I guess) -- secure data won't show in the search results. It'll take a while to initially index...incremental indexing will occur on start-up or on idle time....only available on PCs for now; smart phones and CE might be available at a later date. The beta length will be based on quality reports received. It won't index IE cache. There won't be any advertising on this..."information remains local."

They unfortunately didn't take my question, which was...
Seeing that the beta MSN is currently being integrated into the toolbar, the SEO community will be chomping at the bit to know: when can we expect MSN to dump Inktomi and go with its own search results?

Cygnus

[Cygnus]

Okay...I think it goes live in 30 minutes...with Bill the one giving the signal [complete speculation of course]

Pre-show Keynote: Bill Gates, Microsoft
6:30 p.m. Wednesday, January 5, Las Vegas Hilton
Once again, Microsoft Chairman and Chief Software Architect Bill Gates opens the show with his vision of the year ahead in consumer electronics. Expect the unexpected. In the past, Gates used the International CES to preview products and technologies such as Xbox, Tablet PC, smart personal object technology (SPOT) watches and Smartphone.

Can’t get to the keynote but want to see Bill Gates? Stream the Microsoft keynote from www.microsoft.com and watch it live!

[smindsrt]

Great information! THANKS! :D

Let's all hope it does since most of use rank.... well let's say own the rankings on MSN Beta.

[smindsrt]

Day light savings..... AZ people LOL ;)

1 hour and 15 minutes.

[Cygnus]

Doh!

I guess I could take a short break then. Thanks for rubbing Ben Franklin's ill-conceived temporal displacement concept in my face. :p

Cygnus

[smindsrt]

Sorry buddy.

I used to travel a lot for business and when I was in AZ...... well lets just say I never knew if I was an hour late on time or whatever. LOL

Thanks for the heads up I plan to watch.

[g00gl3r]

[QUOTE=Cygnus]...launch date, how much more is planned before launch, etc etc. On the 13th, MSN is having a conference call and will be at the SES Chicago conference -- methinks we'll be learning something regarding our questions next week.

Cygnus[/QUOTE]

I am on holiday from the 8th, if there is news about the release date can you change the line in my sig to the correct date for me? Not too sure when i'll be back and I don't want to appear like i've left the forum forever but want to promote the new MSN as much as possible.?!


Weird request I know, and maybe as a Mod you can't, but could you forward the request perhaps to somebody who can?

[Cygnus]

Well, it hasn't happened yet, so I guess the weirdness of your request doesn't matter too much. They didn't say anything about a launch that I could see.

Per the conference video...was it me, or did Conan look really bored? After an hour and a half of watching that, I know I was.

Cygnus

[smindsrt]

They could of at least tested the demo's over and over so that they would actually work in front of such a large crowd.

[g00gl3r]

[QUOTE=Cygnus]Well, it hasn't happened yet, so I guess the weirdness of your request doesn't matter too much. They didn't say anything about a launch that I could see.[/QUOTE]


No worries, problem solved. :)

(btw, is my sig ok? not too sure if the URL is still classed as a link, if so I have three which I think is above the max (2?)!

[Cygnus]

Your sig is fine...two live links.

[jlknauff]

You know-I can't help but wonder if they are just putting the beta out to mis direct Google as to what they will really have, sort of a business strategy.

I think we'll see soon ;)

[Titanseo]

If you haven't heard, MSN.com is now using their own search engine results. Watch out Google and yahoo!

Here is an article on the subject.

<snip>

[QUOTE=Snowblind]The new MSN search engine may change, but here's what we know about it so far.

It does not use Meta tags.
For on-page optimisation the title tag seems to be a strong variable in their rankings. Possibly not as much as Google however.
Anchor text in links appear to be a very strong factor. This looks to have been given larger weight than in Google.
The written content on the page is still a factor in ranking. I can't comment on the weight at this time.

Has anyone else noticed other things that we should be aware of?[/QUOTE]

[Titanseo]

Another thing to note is that large amounts of links coming from the same IP seem to get more credit from the new MSN beta than from google or yahoo. This was how it used to be with google back in the old days. Now they give you less credit if you have 100,000 links from one website, than if you had the same links from 100,000 different websites. MSN beta doesn't seem to care as much!

[jocelyn]

Well msn looks like fun, I tried the tool for backlinks on smindsrt new site and saw that it had much more that the others. Never followed msn but will use them for backlinks count now... lol

[eitemiller]

In general - are most of us seo'ers pretty happy with the overall SERP's on the new beta? Seems like the answer is yes - and I am talking about our own sites and how they rank in the SERP's. My client's site ranks #6 which is much higher than G & Y.

Heck, my SEO site is ranking #7 for "SEO Services" and I dont consider myself to be one of the big dogs, for obvious reasons.

Am I a little crazy, or is it just easier to rank high on the new MSN?

[Titanseo]

I think what it comes down to is link popularity. It is something that usually only SEO's concentrate on. So naturally their sites and their client’s sites will rank well in MSN because they are weighting that aspect much more than Google and Yahoo do. MSN also ranks pages with higher keyword saturation more than google does, so that is another "seo" advantage. I think you will also notice a lot more "spam" on the new MSN. Cloaking and redirects are rampant!

[smindsrt]

[QUOTE=eitemiller]

Am I a little crazy, or is it just easier to rank high on the new MSN?[/QUOTE]

Too easy. ;) I haven't spent in time yet on my SEO site and I'm number 34 for "SEO" 34 might not sound good put consider the competition.

I guess it's time to put a little effort into it. :D

[eitemiller]

Yea - just too easy. How long before ya think it changes? Best reap the benefits now before it does.

I am not in the top 1000 (at this time) in G for "seo services", yet I am #7 in MSN. If I wasn't a humble person, I might get a big head. of course, seo-guy is #1 in MSN for the same term. Good job, dude.

[smindsrt]

MSN does seems a bit better for checking those backlinks. MSN shows for one of my sites at 45,800 backlinks which is more realistic number than Google or Yahoo. I think that's about half of what I have. ;) The best out of the big three.

[Cygnus]

The only problem I'm really seeing is that the pages indexed are from the right domains, but the wrong selection of pages...(index instead of specific product when a product query is run). Because of this I'm seeing increasingly stronger traffic from MSN, but conversions have been slight -- this will change as the algorithm improves, but for now it is an issue...don't count on all those nice positions; I give them 2-3 weeks before they are completely different.

Cygnus

[xan]

Thanks for the insight Cygnus, and I also agree with you.

[repman]

I think MSN now updates backlinks everyday.

[eitemiller]

[QUOTE=repman]I think MSN now updates backlinks everyday.[/QUOTE]

Really? Kinda find that hard to believe, ya know? You been seeing daily changes? I will have to keep my eye on that.

I do know this - I got one really, really happy client - he's thrilled to see his page at the top of the SERP's for both keywords - I told him not to hold his breath - I have no idea how long it will last.

[Cygnus]

Yes, it is updating daily (or at least the count is).

Strangely, it is going up AND down -- versus incrementally up, as one might assume.

[eitemiller]

Dang - good eye, repman.

Let me be the dumb one here - what command works in MSN for links? I am trying link: and linkdomain: & I get nothing...Never really studied MSN until now...

[Cygnus]

In the beta you can use
link:www.domain.com

[abhishekmat]

When it was not live, for two kewords my site was on 2nd position, still for some other kewords it is. It looks like for me its still tough enough, MSN (beta) :p

[BlkJack]

MSN is really at quick at indexing new sites and updating links. A 4 day old site is indexed. Links added 1.5 days ago on the new site are indexed.

I have another fairly new site that is ranking #1 in MSN for a fairly competitive term. The term is the same as the domain. A very large proportion of the links were using this keyword.

[eitemiller]

I agree with MSN being quick. I activated a new domain name, and change my sig file in about 5 forums to add this new doamin name. MSN had the site indexed in 12 hours. Google had it indexed in 24 hours. Still waiting on Yahoo, but no surprise there.

Maybe that is the angle MSN is going for - a quicker/faster SE? It was already noted that MSN updates is links daily (which still impresses me). Haven't seen any major changes in the MSN SERP's as of yet.

[BlkJack]

It is nice to get immediate feedback for your work (links indexed right away). :D

[Dreamshop]

I saw I small drop once the beta went live, but nothing major....all of the sites I manage are kicking MSN butt! Most are in the number 1 spot! :cool:


Going back to the original post about what the MSN algo is, I'd have to say that optimized backlinks with keyword anchor text is the top factor, but targeted page title tags are important as well.

One interesting thing to note is that if you're using html tables it lists the text in the first table as the description, whereas Yahoo will pull text from the Meta Description, then lead into whatever text is 'visibly' at the top of the page (as opposed to reading the tables in order).

[eferg]

Re: MSN Description

On my site, MSN is not pulling the description from the first table. It appears to go after the cluster of text with the highest keyword density related to the page title. In my case it is the second table containing my text links to blue widgets, red widgets, etc.

Ed

[KCarrington]

I have a site ranking #2, and from what I can see, MSNbeta loves links, the more the merrier!

Free Tips beginners:
Search Engine Optimization - Free Tips! (http://engine-optimization-search.blogspot.com)

[Nick0r]

I'm #6 poker "poker" (msn.com) and #4 for "football" (msn.co.uk). The secret? See my signature.

[madmonk]

msn seems more receptive to changes than google.

[ltcobretti]

Although Yahoo and Google seem to spider just as fast, I only seem to have luck getting right into MSN. It makes me think that you might as well get as many links as you can right away, because you will be waiting for google anyways, and it seems that yahoo only lets you in fast if you have a yahoo directory link, or maybe a link they somehow trust...any thoughts there ?

[tfbpa]

[QUOTE=Nick0r]I'm #6 poker "poker" (msn.com) and #4 for "football" (msn.co.uk). The secret? See my signature.[/QUOTE]

a few questions if you don't mind...

How much weight do you have
How many keywords are you using, with the approx. weight per keyword.
Do you link to your internal pages as well, or just to your main page.
How long took it to get these results.

You're nr. 3 now btw, Good Job!

<edit>Are you getting many visitors from MSN</edit>

[madmonk]

it seems that yahoo only lets you in fast if you have a yahoo directory link, or maybe a link they somehow trust...any thoughts there ?

yes you are not wrong to say that. A yahoo paid inclusion will give you fast access and make sure that your pages are not dropped as well.

[Nick0r]

[QUOTE=tfbpa]a few questions if you don't mind...

How much weight do you have
How many keywords are you using, with the approx. weight per keyword.
Do you link to your internal pages as well, or just to your main page.
How long took it to get these results.

You're nr. 3 now btw, Good Job!

<edit>Are you getting many visitors from MSN</edit>[/QUOTE]
i got 120k weight and i use only 1/2 keywords (none of them say poker as that is against coop rules)

I just link to my homepage

it took me about a week to get this.

[Cartman]

[QUOTE=Nick0r]i got 120k weight and i use only 1/2 keywords (none of them say poker as that is against coop rules)

I just link to my homepage

it took me about a week to get this.[/QUOTE]

What's your football site? Want to trade links with me?

(I'd kill for 120K weight, but hopefully after the next PR update my situation should be a bit better)

[jay88]

so are you a lot of you saying that MSN at this time actually is putting more weight on inbound links than Google even?

[g00gl3r]

I am finding with more domains each week that off-page data is playing a huge factor for serps on MSN although I have found with a few clients sites this can cause them to pop off #1 for a couple of weeks then pop back on and slowley climb again to #1. Not too sure if they are playing with some filters on it. I have noticed that http://search.ninemsn.com shows different results every now and again for some reason, but beta.search.msn.com & search.msn.com are the same now. (I think)

[-Spanish-SEO-]

[QUOTE=g00gl3r]I am finding with more domains each week that off-page data is playing a huge factor for serps on MSN although I have found with a few clients sites this can cause them to pop off #1 for a couple of weeks then pop back on and slowley climb again to #1. Not too sure if they are playing with some filters on it. I have noticed that http://search.ninemsn.com shows different results every now and again for some reason, but beta.search.msn.com & search.msn.com are the same now. (I think)[/QUOTE]
It is like ninemsn.com is less udpated than msn.com, I saw the results for some keyowrds that I used to see at MSN one month ago...