Whose job is it to police SEO spam?
 

I was trying to find some link exchange partners only to find three websites in the top 10 for one of our KW's that were all using 'invisible text' - about 100 words in really tiny white text on a white background. This is completely rediculous. I reported the first guy to Google, then I wanted to email the second but then thought, what if these guys sit there and click thru my Adword ads all day and cost me a fortune.

I'm up against keyword spammers and traffic power customers. I hate competing with cheaters!

Whose job is it to police this crap?

clickfraud is a huge problem now days -

I stopped all overture ads for now (lots of clicks, poor conversion)
and started monitoring adwords daily - disabled the "content" so I'll get only clicks from biG, not their affiliates and I compare ref ammounts and check IP referrals... :rolleyes:

hate cheaters...

I beleive you should report shameless abusers and try to
beat them fair-play... :bond:

search engines.

most stuff can be beat using legit techniques if you are willing to invest the time and money into it and can create a better site / idea from the start.

IMHO seo is about cheating...its about doing what is wise to make your stuff rank well. there are some ways that are more risky and some that are less.

Yahoo! edits their results so they may be more likely to respond to spam reports than google

hi Aaron,

I think that eventually good and quick responds to the search environment can be classified as wisdom rater than a cheat... ;)

p.s - the MSN beta crashed... will someone explain what the f*** are they doing? :huh:

IMHO Seo is about making the valuable content on your site just as valuable to machines as it is to humans.

Content is always King, and that is how Google is setup. Google is setup to help people find information. If you don't provide valuable information on your site, yet are still trying to optimize your site to rank well, then you are doing exactly what Google is trying to prevent - making a useless site seem useful to machines and not humans.

If you have a site with tons of great information, then a child could optimize it.

IMHO it is not the Search Engines job to police SPAM. It is the people who use Search Engines job. (ie. You and Me).

When we see spam we should report it to Google. Google will then alter it's algorithm to help elimate spam.

It's setup almost like our our justice system. Google (the courts) creates laws. When we find a site breaking those laws (SPAM), we report them to google. Google then penalizes those sites, and creates new laws (algorithms) to make the web better.

If you don't report spam when you see it, then you don't have a right to complain when sites SPAM their way to the top of the SERPS. - That is my view.

I think not. IMO there needs to be a redress in the way seos and webmasters think about poor quality serps.

Here's a quote from NFFC in a thread over at sew

This is in answer to "who should take responsiblity for spam" - or some similar earlier point in the thread


The fact is, Google cant control their own algorithm so, in the best tradition of cluetrainesque smoke and mirros PR (public relations) they blame the users of the system.

Dont fall for it.

Nick

not true. usually its worthwhile to make stuff seem great, but most people are too lazy to create something amazingly worthwhile...yet when you search for dvd players you still get a result.

sure your own site should be good, but most people do not want to make an amazing website...they just want the profits as if they made one.



is it our job to share in the financial profits when the algorithm works well?


Google rarely penalizes the sites you turn in. I make my site for whoever I want, but not 100% of the site design and concepts are made specifically for google. they are no court and they are making millions or billions of dollars of profits from people blindly following the things that help their business model.


you have the right to complain about anything you want. just because you report it dones not give you some special privilege.

I see I struck a chord among fellow SEO's. The good news is that I did report all three sites to Google and copy /pasted their invisible text just so Google know that I'm not just trying to sabotage a competitor.

Secondly, one of the sites I emailed to ask them why they feel the need to stuff their home page with KW's replys with an apology and they said ( in really poor English ) "we don't read webmaster guidelines". Fine, but know the text is gone, so I feel I did some good.

Seguey...

So all this brings up another subject. What is grey-hat SEO? I was reading over at seochat about a new cloaking method that this guy says works like charm. If SEO is about getting top placement in the SERP's than why refrain from using risque techniques?

As someone said earlier, just take responsiblity for your own site. If someone else discovers your shadiness, only then must you be accountable for your actions.

>>invisible text

What? Are you high? - that stuff dont matter unless you're in the most uncompetitive of fields possible! - what a waste of time....

>>risque

ROTFLMAO! - dude, you mean risky, not risque - unless of course your planning on putting a saucy bra and panties on your source code :eek:

Seriously, if you cant beat some muppet that thinks hidden text is going to help them rank, you need to rethink your seo strategies.....

Nick

It's yours, get to work :s&m:

;)

Cheating, are they really?
Anyone who says that a computer program is capable of judging which site is the best and has the best content is clearly wrong. Do a search for example for "Hotel", and Google guaranteed return several million results. How can Google determine which site has the best information about hotels? How can Google determine which site is the most aesthetically pleasing one? Of course Google can't.

So, let's say I have the world's best hotel site. It's not as big as the other ones, doesn't have as many backlinks as the other ones, but still mine's much nicer looking, has better information and way more user friendly! Still it doesn't even rank among the top 1,000! Would it be bad moral to use doorway pages, cloaking or whatever "black hat SEO" to get on top for the keyword "hotel" in that case? I think not! It's rather the other hotel sites who're "cheating" by making huge sites with mostly crap content and tons of backlinks?

Just for the record I don't use these methods myself since it could possibly give me a penalty, but I can fully understand the ones who do. It's not at all bad moral as long as your site's as informative and presentable as the other ones among the top 10. Of course, if a Viagra site turns up when I search for my hotel, then it's time to report spam :)

Just my opinion...

Trond.

I feel much the same way, though i wouldnt waste the 4mins it takes to report it... let G sort it out, it's their website.

The only time i'd feel compelled to report somthing is if somthing truly abhorrent turned up for an innocent search liek child p*rn for example. Even then, the last thing i'd do is use that silly snitch form....

Nick

I agree with Nick, if I see a site above mine using hidden text, links etc... I normally get even - I tend to focus on that key phrase and knock them off.

I don't bother with the spam reporting form, as Nick said its their job to clean the system of the crap.

So I've concluded, if I've got nothing better to do, then I'll report it - especially those Traffic Power users.

Better yet, I've now had all three websites email me saying 'Oooh...I didn't know what I was doing' - but the funny part is they are all apologizing and asking for SEO advice. So you know where I start..."How about putting a link from your site to mine!"

Rather then reporting to Google, I think emailing the webmaster telling them they are acting unethically seems to work best.

Are they generally your competitors?

It's not only works best (i presume) but it's a lot NICER, remember, these are all fellow webmasters. Bugger ethics, it's about $$$'s but your i agree with your general point :)

Good for you!

Nick

We don't share in the financial profits, no. But we do use their website to find useful information. If you are relying on Google to police it's own site, then don't complain that it does a bad job of taking care of spam.
It's like voting. If you don't vote, don't complain when you get screwed by the government.

I do have the right to complain because I DO report it. You on the other hand don't report it, so it's you who has no right to complain about spam.


I can understand the desire of individuals to want to spam, but that doesn't mean that I don't care if they do spam. I do care because it screws up the system for everyone else. Take meta tags for instance. Once upon a time, they were actually useful ways of telling a search engine what your site was about, now they are worth nothing because of Spammers.
That doesn't mean that it's wrong to optimize a site, it just means that by going too far, they've wrecked things for everyone else. And that is why I report spammers.

you only need to justify your complaints to yourself. I can complain about anything I want to.


spam is a concept which was created to push adherance to the search engines business models. even if people did not abuse meta tags search engines would have some other arbitrary things to complain about to show how evil other people are for thier algorithm not working perfectly.

I hardly ever complain about spam in the search engines. If I have a result I don't like, then I report it. If I find competitors are using spam I report them. And I have seen results that reporting actually works, because a large site that was everywhere ahead of us for many terms used a ton of spam to get to the top. So I reported them and a few weeks later they were out of there.

Like I said, I don't waste time complaining on forums about "spam this", or "spam that". My point is that if I did want to complain, I would have a right to, because I do my part, so if the SE's query's show spam results, it is up to the SE to tweak their algorithms.


If meta tags returned good search results, then why would google abandon them and switch to links as their main linking criteria? They wouldn't. But now that links have been manipulated by people through mass link exchanges and link purchases, I am sure that the search engines will need to need to find something else to weigh.
If google blames people for their algorithm working imperfectly, then it should also praise people for their algorithm working perfectly. What I mean by that is that their algorithm works better then any other search engine. That is why people use it more then any other search engine. So... Yes, Google doesn't like spammers, cause it makes their job harder. But on the other hand, there are millions of people that follow their guidelines when optimizing sites, making it easier for their algorithm to work properly.


If you're having problems with "Child P*rn" results showing up, then I'd turn your safe search feature on, and be thankful that Google doesn't factor in personal search history to provide "even better" results.
You must have been of those kids who did something wrong then made fun of other kids who told on you. Because I don't think adults view spam report forms as "silly snitch forms". But whatever.


Spammers know that they are spamming. If there wasn't a penality for it, we'd all be doing it. So what good does emailing a webmaster do, if there wasn't someone like google who can actually do something about it?
It's like robing a bank... If you told a bank robber that what he is doing is wrong, and you'd prefer him to stop doing it, do you think he's going to stop because you asked him to? Doubt it.
On the other hand, if you told him that his next bank robbery is a trap and police are waiting inside for him... he will think twice before robbing that bank.

Hehe, this sounds exactly like our judicial system (unfortunately).

But back on topic, the only way to really police this is for a legitimate competing search engine to emerge so that Google has more incentive to try to eliminate spam. With an overwhelming market share of internet searchers, there's no reason right now for Google to do much of anything significant.

I agree. Competition is a great thing and will result in a better search experience for everyone. But that also means that more SEO nightmares caused by algorithm changes and dropped results.

In addition, having one major search engine makes SEO jobs easier then having several top search engines. We currently only worry about the changes google makes. Imagine if we had to worry about the changes 3 Google sized search engines make.

I think that google has plenty of incentive to elimate spam, I just think that they're preoccupied with other ventures such as Gmail, and their desktop search.

usually spam reports are (at least on an individual report level) ignored by Google.


more likely they just have a stronger brand.


Google does not tell you how to make a great site, an informative site, a site that is worthwhile, or a site that will make money. Adhering to their algorithm makes it easier for them to make more money, but surely I won't be the one sucker in the pool who believe I need to follow all the rules that many people ignore.

Their rules are set up to make them money. With sites I intend to keep longterm I would recommend following most of their guidelines, but for short term high margin gains (sites in fields like pornography) you prettymuch need to ignore a ton of their rules unless you can build an amazing brand that drives itself.


some people can make their own ethical and judgemental calls that guide their lives without needing arbitrary rulesets to guide them. if your life is guided exclusively by the rules or laws then I think you really are not living.

They have a stronger brand because they are known for consistently returning the best results. You don't see Google advertising much on TV or radio, quite like Yahoo has. In the early days, techies used it primarly and G was more of an underground thing before it went mainstream. But it's trackrecord for returning accurate results is what made it's brand strong.


Please provide a statement by Google that says that.


The rules are based on high informtion, high content websites because that's what google searchers want. If they are looking for to shop then they should be listed in Froogle, if they are looking for porn.. then they should go elsewhere, because SEO's that optimize for porn are the lowest in my book.



If you want to make your own rules and not abide by any set rules you will be living in choas and anarchny. Besides, this is what I've been saying all along, "because you choose to live outside the rules, you make stricter rules for everyone else when things like Meta Tags and Alt Tags (things that should represent a site) get devalued because Porn Spammers need high profit margins in the short run.

that comment comes from personal experience and that fact is no real secret. they want to make you believe it is important to promote the search engine is perfect and you should snitch on other webmasters line of thinking.



lots of stuff is sold from search results. some people who do porn are not bad people. I have optimized an adult toy store site before...got him #1 rankings too. it did not make me feel like a bad person at all.



if you do not question authority and blindly follow rules the world will likely be unkind to you. the irony of the porn comparison is that many search engines have a hands off approach when it comes to porn spam...the problem is so big that it is better to let competitive forces sort it out than to try to fix things on the end of the search engine.

1 person's "Personal Experience" is not a valid sample of data, nor should you be willing to accept that as fact. For instance, my personal experience shows that google does remove spam sites we report.

I will wait until google comes out and says that they dont plan on doing anything with the spam reports. Then I'll stop submitting them.


I am starting to see a connection here.
1. You don't care if people spam.
2. You admit that porn websites spam so much the search engines can't do anything about them.
3. You admit to getting top rankings for adult sites.

Makes me nervous to think that you have a book out about SEO.


The thing about SEO isn't that your "Blindly following rules". The fact is that Google doesn't really care if you spam or not. They are just telling people what will and what won't produce high rankings in their engine. Spam techniques (95%) of them can be picked up by search engines automatically.

So why bother reporting people? Well, because I choose to optimize my site using the guidelines that Google gives. So why should others benefit from cheating?
If I was cheating myself, then I probably wouldn't care much. Which leads me back to my above conclusion of, "Why DON'T you care?".


It's funny that you say that. (It's also wrong).
You see. a lot of you tend to think that Google is getting rich off people searching their website. Where in reality, it's the exact opposite. Google doesn't make any money when people search. Infact, it cost alot of money to keep the computers that power google.com up and running.

So why do you think that adhering to their algorithm makes them money? It doesn't. It just costs them money (in terms of hiring more staff to research anti-spam techniques) to discipline people who don't adhere to the algorithm.

It also cost thousands of their jobs when small businesses go under because they've lost their ranking in google.... Because Google decided to tweak their algorithm... because spammers won't take the time to properly optimize web sites.

Everyone blames Google for algorithm updates dropping their sites. But nobody blames the spammers that caused it. Probably because the people that got dropped have sites loaded with spam.

SEO isn't hard.. So why spam?

just as well I can say your personal experience is not a valid sample.


are you naive enough to believe that google does not intentionally misinform people to protect their business model?



1. why should I care about Google's broken spam filitering? why not spend that time making my site better?
2. keep in mind currently I do not own / work on any adult sites...this is what I have got from talking with many many many many seos.
3. nothing wrong with being good at what I do.


your statements indicate you are nervous about much more than that.


so you think Google's guidelines are that they want to tell you how to effectively avoid paying them for advertising?


what makes it cheating and do you need a star for following the guidelines?


did Google hire you to find and define cheats, or is that a self appointed position. seems like right now they are ranking me in the top 10 or so for "seo" for some odd reason or another.


Google serves ads when people search. Some people click the ads. Google makes bank.

Google also puts ads on publishers sites and other search sites. When people click ads Google makes bank.

Google also has a search appliance they sell.

I don't think that those business models are particularly difficult at the surface level.


adhearing to algoriithm and their ideals = ineffective seo. and people will be stuck buying ads. Google makes money. thanks for playing.


and these people email me. and they call me. some crying. and I help many of them get their rankings back for extended periods of time.


I look at the keyword rich text on this page
http://web-design-directory.bluegeckonetwork.com/
and I think spam. personally you are just being a tad bit hypocritical.


for the most part SPAM = SEO = SPAM

Heh heh heh

Google is not worried about "protecting their business model". There is just no reason to tell people that their spam report form is useless, when it is used by thousands of people daily.


Google knows that great websites naturally attract traffic, which naturally attracts advertisers. So, Googles plan isn't to force people into advertising by constantly tweaking their algorithm so that noone can rank. What they're doing is telling webmasters how to create search engine friendly websites that dont dilute search results. By doing this, Google's bots are able to crawl sites better, and deliver more results to visitors. This makes Googles website better, so more people visit, and advertisers love to advertise.


If you've got a star to give, I'll take it. And Googles Spam Report Form outlines what cheating is.


Did Traffic Power hire you to convince people that SPAM = SEO?


Good thing that BGN isn't targeting the SEO keyword. Else you'd be "Top 11" for SEO.


Lol. Are you lost? You just said that not spamming is ineffective seo. Then at the end, you say that "Spamming is SEO".... What do your clients think of that? Or do you withold that little piece of info?


Well then, if you think it's spam. Feel free to report it.
http://www.google.com/contact/spamreport.html

Since it doesn't have
Hidden text or links
Misleading or repeated words
Page does not match Google's description
Cloaked page
Deceptive redirects
Doorway pages
Duplicate site or pages

You'll have to use the "Other (specify)" field. And your comment would be something like. "When I see this site.... It looks like spam. Please remove it from your index."

Then we'll all wait and see if our site gets removed from Google.
----
You see, thats the difference. You don't think that the Spam Reporting system works because you don't care to use it correctly.

Besides. You've got "SEO" repeated about half a million times on your site, and yous rank well. I've got "Web Designer" written half a million times on my site, and it ranks well. Could it be that controlled keyword density isn't really spam.

Perhaps you should make sure you know what Spam is before insulting my site.


Tell that to the Traffic Power Clients.

there is a reason to tell people that reporting spam works...it shifts blame from from the engine to webmasters.


did you get this in writing from google.


you mean like "Misleading or repeated words"


nope, but I spoke out about them enough to where I made it on thier fake forums. one of only 2 or 3 webmasters who had multiple sites / categories on the fake forums.

seems they don't like me. you were left off the sites.


if that is a challenge I will gladly watch you lose.


my clients (or past clients) rank rather well for many terms across many fields...identification, adult, travel, seo / sem, consumer electronics, software, etc.


I just did.




I opted for the Misleading or repeated words category.


I reported your site. if it is still there in a week then either I used the tool wrong (4 whole form elements) or they ignore it. no doubt your site is spam.


comparing your site to that of a spammer? why lower yourself to that level.


funny, I was just thinking that.


I have gave tons of feedback to people who used or were about to hire traffic power. have you?

SEO - Cheating ???
 

Hi Seobook

I have a question. earlier in this thread you stated:



MMMmmmm IMIO (I=Insane) SEO is more like a puzzle. The truely good ones realize that the entire time people are going on about spammy results and links which are dead as far as Google PageRank goes, theres a vast number of ways to make websites "user friendly"

Hard term to grasp for many but so simple to optimize a site by, that its almost hard not to get to googles front page no matter which industry.


And someone else asked why not use the "black hat" doorway pages, gateways etc to get to the front pages.

The best reason I can give you is seven different webmasters I know tried and each one of them got a google ban..That's when I met them :cool:

Peace

Geeee and wheres the zebras, me and jkl got in a spat and the police were all over the place lol

Blame for what... Spammy sites? Bad Results? Who do you think makes those spammy sites? Webmasters do.


Hello. This is Marketing 101. High traffic sites attract advertisers. Google didn't make this up, they just decided to listen to marketers.


LoL. How can the words on our site mislead? All we offer is web designer related content. Repeating words would be something like, "SEO, SEO, SEO".
If you think that my site has spam. you should check out this one site I found. "SEO Book is a blog about search engines which offers search engine optimization tips, an SEO ebook for sale, and covers search engine news. Got search engine questions?" Do you think they are repeating words? Seeing that the term "SEO" is repeated no less then 40 times on their homepage.



Maybe you'd like a star for that achievement? Honestly though, I'm glad you speak out against Traffic Power. Even if you send mixed signals by doing so.


If I cared enough to target that keyword, then I'd gladly move past your 10th spot position. Thankfully for your ebook, I'd rather focus on the web design keywords, since nobody outside webmasters even knows what SEO stands for.


Good for you. My question is, "How much spam did you use to rank well?". We know that the porn site was probably full of spam. Please enlighten.


Great. Lets see if our sites traffic drops from 2,000 visitors a day to 0 in 1 week. I'll keep you updated.


Well. If the author if the site admits that their site is full of spam, then maybe I should submit it. Or even better.. Now that the author is one who reports spam filled sites, perhaps he will report himself.


Most of our SEO clients are repeat customers. So it's not necessary for us to explain the dangers of Spam and how search engines penalize sites that use spam.

there will always be some spammy sites. it is bad algorithms that show them as relevant results.


was google trying to create a product just for marketers?


1.) not misleading...it said misleading OR repetitive
2.) perhaps you should clean up your own site before trying to judge others?



no mixed signals here. I do not need to create generic keyword rich reciprocal link required directories to try to promote my services. I do not run a blue gecko directory / network subdomain on my site.


have the decency to admit when you are outmatched. SEO Guy outranks my site and probably will do for a decent amount of time. I know that he has invested more into his position and has worked hard to get a wide following and build a good forum.

your site would never rank for "seo" on Google even if you wanted to.


again you are speaking in ignorant tones. I never worked on a porn site. I said adult.


if it does not then we know that google ignores at least some of the spam reports.



that was the whole point. rather rude of you to make me report your spam filled site. I already reported my site a while ago, but Google thought it was great.


so you only inform repeat customers. don't sound like a guy who is actually out to help others unless he is helping his own wallet. on the web generally that is not cool...at least from what I understand of it.

>>I do care because it screws up the system for everyone else.

People like you make my day just that little bit brighter. While you're busy prancing around on your white horse clothed in self righteous indignation at the state of somebody elses website, waving your self imposed obligation to the general public about like some kind of banner, im working on my websites.

The english have a good word for people like you

There is no "self reghteous indignation" involved here I simply don't approve of or encourage spam. Who's job do I think it is to stop spam? Webmasters, not Googles. In addition, people who use spam don't see the effect it has on millions when google updates their algorithm to better combat spam.

See, everyone says it's googles job to come up with better algorithms to stop spam. Then SEO's get mad when google updates because all their sites get dropped. I just think that that's stupid.


What would constitute a Good algorithm in your eyes? Yahoo's? Msn's?


No. Google was listening to marketers, so that they can make more money. Marketers said, built a website that people find useful, and people wil use it. Then we'll display ads and make tons of money. So that's what happened.


There is nothing to clean up. The site is fine.
Ranks well, looks good, does it's job without relying on spam.


Mixed signals were sent when you said that "SEO = SPAM = SEO", and then said that Traffic Power is bad because they use Spam. Direct Contridiction.
Why would you want to run Blue Gecko Directory / network subdomain on your site? A. There are not enough webmasters who would want to be included in your directory should you create one. And B. Blue Gecko is our name, so it'd be kind of wierd to run a Blue Gecko Directory from your site.


Agreed. SEO Guy is quite the challenger. I also can admit when I'm outmatched. 1234-find-web-designers.org ranks for all the top keywords, and has build a strong base of sites that link back to him.

Funny thing is that we do rank in Google for "SEO". We just don't care either way.

There is probably little difference when it comes to optimizing either an adult or porn site. You admit that spam is the only way of optimizing such sites, and your probably right. This whole debate happend because adult/porn sites show up for innocent search terms. Your answer is for Google to update their algorithm. My answer is for webmasters to stop spam.
Both answers work, the only difference is that Google will take thousands of businesses down each time it updates their algorithm. Then everyone blames google. But thats the problem with algorithms. It effects everyones site.

Ignoring and not penailizing are two different things. But to make it simple, I'll agree that Google probably does Ignore the sites reported who dont have any spam on them.


I said that most of our clients are repeat customers so there is no reason to explain the dangers of using Spam. - What I meant was that our clients don't need to worry about being dropped off of google, because we don't use spam techniques. Since most of our clients are repeat customers, we don't get many new customers coming to use saying that, "our last seo company used spam and now we're dropped... Why did they drop us, and what how much do we need to pay you to get us back in the index".
Now dont get me wrong. There is nothing wrong with customers coming to SEO's with that problem. I was just saying that it would save everyone grief if SEO's used white hat techniques, rather then black hat techniques.

>Mixed signals were sent when you said that "SEO = SPAM = SEO", and then said that Traffic Power is bad because they use Spam.

I never stated that traffic power was bad because they spam. I stated that they suck because they cold call people AND because they fail to inform clients of risks they take.

ANY QUALITY SEO SERVICE USUALLY HAS SOME AMOUNT OF RISK TO IT.TP choses to use extremely high risk techniques and hurts other businesses by not disclosing the risks.

at this point the posts have become rhetorical circle talk. do you want to make one last post before we close the thread Blue Gecko?

one of us has talk on the phone to search product management at large search engines for hours. be sure that no matter what you say or do the search results will bring up some spammy sites.

(creeps in quietly)

Why should it be anyone's job to police spam. Its a nuisance for search engine results mainly for the user and the SE company, and then for seo's. Its not illegal to have a spammy site if you want to make one, just don't expect to be listed in all search engines and directories. Search engines have the task of exraciting the correct results from a large document set. That's the challenge. They engineer algos to ensure the most relevant results appear. I build search and I welcome seo's to try and cheat my algos, its a great way of testing.

One thing I would like to toss in.

If the below is true for businesses who rank well on google,



Then the business was not that sound to begin with. I am nowhere close to google front page ( Ok I am a litle but not enough) and have plenty of business.

One should close shop and head for the hills if a listing in google wll make or break the business.

""Never place all your eggs in one basket" <---what they don't teach you in Harvard


Clint

Very true-if all of your business comes from one place you pretty much deserve to go under. It's called evolution my friend, and only the strong survive :useforce:

Well IMHO Search Engines have no responsability for your business online. As far as they are concerend, they just retrieve the site url and present it to the user.
If you go bankrupt because of being dropped,...bad business descision.