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Old 04-25-2004, 03:40 PM
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The sandbox Effect

The SandBox Effect,

This post at that other forum, a long time ago stuck in my head, considering the source was “G man” himself.
“I heard that at PubCon, DaveN suggested that Google should only update the visible PR and link: data once a quarter or so...
thatotherforum/forum3/22566.htm“

Now I hadn’t given it much thought until recently when a few clients of mine went out and purchased thousands of back links, and within 1-2 months were at a PR 8 for a new domain 2-3 months old.

Now the situation: (And no I’m not going to post the domain don’t want a million link request coming in because of the PR 8) but take my word for it, the site is well written, decently SEO’d (Completely SE Friendly from inception and just needs tweaking) and has more back links then anyone in its field. Also It’s field has hundreds of thousands if not millions of searches combined for its main keywords so a well ranked site would get tons of traffic, however this site is getting some 60 uniques per day from Google…60!

There are thousands of pages in the domain all targeting different terms and Like I said it’s a PR 8 so even with the slightest hint of SE friendliness (Which is not overdone btw density is like 1-5 % in most cases) they should by all rights ROCK EVERYONE!

So what’s the problem? Some good friends of mine and I have been tossing around the idea of the sandbox effect. Basically it states that PR and back link (pure link popularity) credit is placed in a reserve for a period of time say 2-4 months before it is applied to ranking and has an effect. The theory behind this is to combat PR purchasers from Google bombing, jumping into a field and dominating right off the bat. If PR appears to not be working people will stop buying it. If people stop buying page rank then its original purpose gains validity again. But instead of having to dump it because of abuse wait till people realize its no longer useful just put a delay on its effect and people will “think” it no longer counts and those spending thousands abusing it will quickly realize after 1-2 months of no benefit that it no longer works and move on.

Pretty sneaky and rather effective I think, however I can’t prove or disprove at this point I just wanted to put it to your attention for discussion. Also please realize I do not subscribe to this theory although it supported by a few hundred observed instances of the same phenomenon.

I would love to hear members comments on this situation and its implications, evidence to support but also evidence to refute its existence. Situations, examples etc also if anyone has access to any articles, forum posts, discussion groups etc pertaining to this phenomenon I would love for your to share, I am anxious to put this theory to bed either proved or disproved.
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Old 04-25-2004, 05:32 PM
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Im in the exact same boat. I've got a pr 6 website with tons of backlinks and seo'd as best as possible. I've done the following in google and beat all my competetors (of which none have a pr of more than 4):

site:
allinanchor
link:

I have 500 more backlinks than anyone I found, I'm number 1 for 'link:', and I've got over 50 more pages than anyone. Total returned search results are 90,000. Now Im not at a horrible place, Im listed #23 for my keyword, but my competors are on the first page. Whats the difference? My site is only 4 Months old, and only indexed by google for about 3 months. All this talk about SEO's able to get people to the top in a month is no longer true, at least not for new domains. Any Suggestions?
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Old 04-25-2004, 05:45 PM
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Hey Morgan!

Great Topic. I don't buy into the theory... Its obvious something is happening, but I don't think it's a blanket sand-box effect.

I fairly recently purchased quite a bit of PR for client, and they jetted up to a top contending spot as soon as the links were picked up ( commercial $$ terms, but a relatively small market fighting for the top 30 spots or so ). Then, the link site over-sold its PR, and they drifted down to a second page spot, which I'm slowing pulling up.

I think that the PR leveraged at the site should be "worth" far more than is being "calculated" presently, but it was very clear that there wasn't a time delay associated with PR transfer.

Google's definately playing around with something. I have another site which I manage which has significant PR thrown at it, that was wiped from the serps about 3-4 weeks ago. It ranked alot better with a PR4 than a PR7.... If I wasn't watching closely ( I was ), I might have thought that it was the PR that was killing it.

In my opinion, the severity of the situation can be better viewed by viewing more non-competitive key term areas. It looks to me like Google is just busy shooting itself in the foot.

Let me give one concrete example... Google at times is using some sort of key-term coupled with link anaylsis word filtering. My proof is my ability to bypass it.

Take a key term that google should not be having a problem with: tile installation dallas texas.

How difficult is that? If you do a search on all major search engines, my client holds at least the 2nd position, and I haven't even gone back and tweaked the site yet. Hardly touched the site at all; no need.

But study the results on google... I hold the top #1 spot, but I had to bypass the trip filter to get it. I figured this out after Florida, and even knocked two websites off the SERPS by throwing links at them. I wrote an article about it at the time, and it was amazing how FAST the old results returned. I still think a similiar filtering method is being used, but I think it's toned way down.

If you study the difference in Google term results with very related key terms, the results are night-and-day different. Look at tile installation dallas tx rather dallas texas.

Now, I could take the site and turn up the SEO... But I know from experience, it won't make one bit of difference.

You'll notice that ALL of the real dallas texas contractors are not on page 1 of Google. They are on yahoo, and they are on msn. That is NOT a coincidence. I have a dozen more equally ugly examples I've been studying.

Now, if there were 30,000 dallas tx tile installation contractors, then I bet we wouldn't be able to see the descrepency.

I hate to say it, but there is a giant gaping hole in google's algo right now, clear as day. One of these days, the porn industry is going to see it, and Google's going to pay a serious price for the state of its SERPS. Imagine every single key term combination that would normally require a solid & quality website PR 3/4 for a top ten listing, all being dominated by a few porn spammers. I could do an example right now. I've held off, because every once in awhile, I see a completely different set of results for a few minutes that look decent. It looks to me like Google is still working on it.

I won't say too much more, but the evidence has thus been presented - in black on white.

All of this is one reason I stopped posting on WbMstrWld.

I don't see any of these "Google challenges" as "Hilltop" algo implementation, successful "spam filtering" or any other of the hair-brained ideas passed around the UN ( did I say U.N.? Freudian slip ).

The above simple example is not an isolated incident. I think the more competitive the terms are, the harder it is too see the effects, but I think that the problem is widespread.

Anyway, those are my observations, based on what I see, but may not necessarily reflect what others see, so...
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Last edited by AVWeb : 04-25-2004 at 05:46 PM. Reason: semantics
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Old 04-25-2004, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVWeb
You'll notice that ALL of the real dallas texas contractors are not on page 1 of Google. They are on yahoo, and they are on msn. That is NOT a coincidence. I have a dozen more equally ugly examples I've been studying.

google local accomplishes this.
i personally hate the results at google local.
but it spits out a solid list.

http://local.google.com/local?sc=1&...G=Google+Search

.
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Old 04-25-2004, 09:06 PM
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If I understand the possible SandBox Effect, it sounds like a good thing for the small time web designer / business owner. I don't see any negative affect for those of us in it for the long haul and who don't have the money to go out and buy 20,000 links for $10,000 a month. For those of us who's only choice is to personally contact other webmasters and maybe get 30 links a month should see some benefit in in this, if for no other reason than spammers and people out for quick money will get bored or maybe if we're lucky give up.
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Old 04-25-2004, 10:27 PM
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2 more threads (Members only) from webmaster world. More info to come!

http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum78/4722.htm
http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum78/4714.htm
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Old 04-25-2004, 10:30 PM
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A comment from a friend in the mod circle

A suggestion might be that this penalty (if it does exist) is in relation to the ratio of internal links to the homepage from those external to the site - if you'll using too many links to your homepage with the keywords in it you will notice a ranking drop - or at least I did!!

Doesnt really apply to the sandbox as much as in general. OK Morgan Stay on topic!
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Old 04-25-2004, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morgan
2 more threads (Members only) from webmaster world. More info to come!

http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum78/4722.htm
http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum78/4714.htm



You may not be able to quote these posts but can you give those of us who are not willing to pay a brief synopsis?
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Old 04-26-2004, 12:37 AM
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Umm there is 22 pages in one of them lol I will have to finish rereading tomorrow please remind me I promise I will do it. its 130 am kind of hard to concentrate lol
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Old 04-27-2004, 09:20 AM
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Well I have my bucket and shoval ready to play in the sandbox..if it comes to that!
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